×

·

蔣曉飛 × John van de Water

NEXT 建築事務所于 1999 年在荷蘭阿姆斯特丹成立，2004 年在中國落地，由國內(nèi)知名建築師蔣曉飛與創始人約翰·範德沃特主持。NEXT 中國團隊憑借得(de)天獨厚的中西合璧的文化優勢和(hé)獨具匠心的設計風格，以國際化視野平衡文化、社會(huì)、功能、生(shēng)态、經濟的多(duō)方需求，在城市規劃、商業綜合體(tǐ)、辦公建築、酒店(diàn)、文化建築、住宅、室內(nèi)設計、橋梁設計等多(duō)領域開(kāi)展可(kě)持續性設計。

NEXT 在中國享有(yǒu)很(hěn)高(gāo)的聲譽，是在中國發展的外籍建築設計事務所中最具代表性的事務所之一。近幾年，NEXT 更是受到荷蘭王室的青睐。2015 年,中方合夥人蔣曉飛受到荷蘭國王特邀接見；2018 年，荷蘭王後到訪 NEXT 建築事務所北京公司做(zuò)主題交流。

My name is John van de Water, I'm an architect from Holland. And I've been very grateful that, let me think back, Nineteen ninety nine, so twenty one years ago, I came first to China. I was graduated as an architect from Delft University. We founded NEXT architects immediately after graduating together with our three other partners. And our first project was a research project which is called the Image of Metropolis. So we traveled to twenty six of the biggest cities on earth in just a time spent of four months in nineteen ninety nine. And this was my first acquaintance with China (Beijing), the first Chinese cities. And also the acquaintance with the amazing culture and a big design question. I thought China was facing, how to modernize, but how to relate it still back to your to your 5000 year old old history and culture. 

▲ NEXT辦公空(kōng)間(jiān) © 圖片源自網絡

In 2001, I came back to give a lecture at Tsinghua University. And in the lecture, there was somebody sitting in the lecture hall, and this person was Jiang Xiaofei, my current partner, but I didn't know he was sitting in the lecture hall, but he told me many years after. In 2004, I came back to really established Next Beijing, and then very quickly I met the Jiang Xiaofei again. And we just started trying whether we could really work together on projects based on his contribution and understanding of Chinese culture and my Western and foreign way of thinking Of what could be possible or what we could design? And we've been still working very, very harmoniously I would say, but also with a mutual kind of thinking in architecture. So I'm proud to these on projects that are not Dutch not Western, but they are really influenced by Chinese culture and by Chinese thinking. 

▲ NEXT辦公空(kōng)間(jiān) © 圖片源自網絡

我們去年在荷蘭做(zuò)了一個(gè)可(kě)以被水(shuǐ)淹的橋 —— Zalige大(dà)橋，首先橋可(kě)以被水(shuǐ)淹是一個(gè)新鮮的概念，其次橋随着洪水(shuǐ)位上(shàng)下變化，跟自然的關系引發人更深度的思考，在荷蘭引起比較大(dà)的轟動。

鄉村振興最重要的就是可(kě)持續發展，比如在江西金溪大(dà)坊村，我們把傳統的水(shuǐ)稻改為(wèi)種植香料植物，農民收入增加。建築師在做(zuò)鄉村振興的時(shí)候，不是說做(zuò)完就完了，而是要讓村落持續發展。

項目最初叫莫比烏斯橋，在彙報的一分鍾，我把它改名叫中國結橋，因為(wèi)我發現它更像中國結，在彙報的時(shí)能明(míng)顯感覺到當中國結橋這個(gè)觀點的時(shí)候，政府的領導包括評委都有(yǒu)明(míng)顯的眼前一亮的感覺。中國結橋在實施的過程難度也很(hěn)大(dà)，因為(wèi)我們對橋的形态做(zuò)了極緻的探討(tǎo)，這個(gè)橋最終由幾條飄帶形成，實際上(shàng)要把所有(yǒu)結構、受力、台階塔布和(hé)中間(jiān)的關聯，全部在幾個(gè)飄帶上(shàng)解決，難度非常大(dà)。

中國結橋也延展到很(hěn)多(duō)方面，被收錄到荷蘭的中學課本裏，被設定為(wèi)競賽課題，美國國家(jiā)地理(lǐ)也專門(mén)派團隊到長沙拍攝，後續吉普也希望在這個(gè)橋上(shàng)拍攝廣告，有(yǒu)很(hěn)多(duō)很(hěn)多(duō)相關性的延展。一個(gè)建築的影(yǐng)響力絕對不限于建築本身，它有(yǒu)更多(duō)的社會(huì)性。但(dàn)是我覺得(de)國內(nèi)建築圈子相對封閉，我一直提倡建築要走出去，讓社會(huì)理(lǐ)解，提升大(dà)家(jiā)對城市，對社會(huì)，對自己生(shēng)存環境的認識。

事務所包括建築設計公司非常多(duō)，但(dàn)是因為(wèi)機會(huì)等各種限制(zhì)條件，80%的事務所包括建築設計公司從事的更多(duō)是一些(xiē)社會(huì)性的、跟經濟相關的建設活動（比如大(dà)型樓盤設計等），隻有(yǒu)20%的事務所在做(zuò)引領性的項目。

約翰：對我個(gè)人來(lái)說，人工智能更多(duō)的是一個(gè)設計工具，它向我們展示了更多(duō)可(kě)能性，但(dàn)它并不能取代設計。我認為(wèi)人工智能是不能在設計中産生(shēng)靈感機緣（serendipity）和(hé)設計的。靈感機緣（serendipity）對我們辦公室非常重要，這意味着每個(gè)人都可(kě)以測試一個(gè)想法的未來(lái)價值。所以我們不僅研究以前做(zuò)過的事情，還(hái)測試這些(xiē)想法對于未來(lái)意味着什麽。人工智能在這點上(shàng)有(yǒu)局限，至少(shǎo)它們不能生(shēng)産這個(gè)過程與思考。通(tōng)過測試未來(lái)的價值，我們會(huì)遇到一個(gè)叫做(zuò)“靈感機緣（serendipity）”的時(shí)刻。它就像設計思考中的一個(gè)閃光，一些(xiē)可(kě)能與項目并無關聯的東西突然冒出來(lái)，就有(yǒu)了一個(gè)創新的基于之前的新想法，就像過去被投射到未來(lái)。所以對我來(lái)說，AI作(zuò)為(wèi)一種工具非常有(yǒu)用，但(dàn)它不能取代設計。

For me, this artificial intelligence is a design tool, so it's showing what is possible, but it's not replacing design. I think one aspect that AI cannot produce serendipity in design, serendipity and design, I think it's something very important in our office that means that ideas go from person to person, and we can test this idea on their future value. So we don't only research what has been done before, but we test these ideas of what could it mean for the future. And I think there's a limit to AI at this moment at least that they cannot produce this. And sometimes by testing what is the value for the future, we come up with a moment which is called serendipity. It's like an excellence in design thinking, something that maybe doesn't have to do  something with the project, but suddenly comes on the table, and then there's like a new idea, and there's new ideas based on what has been done before, but it's like being projected into the future. So for me, AI is very helpful as a tool, but it's not replacing design.

約翰：我們是一個(gè)創意工作(zuò)室，雖然我們成立也快20年了，但(dàn)仍然自認為(wèi)是一個(gè)年輕的設計工作(zuò)室。作(zuò)為(wèi)一個(gè)以創造為(wèi)中心的工作(zuò)室有(yǒu)很(hěn)多(duō)美好方面，特别是對年輕人來(lái)說。比如今天你(nǐ)可(kě)以參與一個(gè)重要橋梁的設計工作(zuò)，下一個(gè)就可(kě)能是機場(chǎng)、商業園區(qū)或摩天大(dà)樓，給年輕人提供了很(hěn)大(dà)的空(kōng)間(jiān)來(lái)展現創意和(hé)創造力。所以工作(zuò)室的年輕設計師們有(yǒu)很(hěn)大(dà)的靈活性，願意學習、成長、發展。我和(hé)蔣曉飛認為(wèi)我們的職責是提供好的學習環境，給他們發展空(kōng)間(jiān)，來(lái)幫助提高(gāo)他們概念設計能力。這是我們在中國過去近20年在做(zuò)的事情，也将繼續做(zuò)下去。

We are creative office, And we still tend to think that we are a young office, although we are already twenty years old and found twenty years ago. And being a creative office has a lot of beautiful things, because  especially for young people, one day, you can work on an important bridge and the next day or the next project, you work on an air field or an airport. And the next project might be like a business park or like a high rise tower. So this allows a lot of space for young people to to develop their creative ideas and their creative capacity. So this requires also a lot of flexibility from our young designers in our office, willing to learn and want to learn and want to develop. Me and Jiang Xiaofei  we consider this is our duty in our offices to provide this environment to learn and give the space for them to develop and to just develop their conceptual design capacity. So this is something we can working on for the last sixteen years in China. And we will continue to do this. 

▲ 北京月季博物館  © NEXT建築事務所

09

時(shí)機時(shí)機：您在中國工作(zuò)生(shēng)活了十幾年，對中國的設計有(yǒu)什麽思考？

約翰：我們認為(wèi)設計不會(huì)局限于文化，這是它最有(yǒu)趣的地方，這也是我至今在中國生(shēng)活和(hé)工作(zuò)超過16年的原因。作(zuò)為(wèi)一個(gè)荷蘭人，中國文化豐富了我的思維、設計能力、設計理(lǐ)念和(hé)在中國的語境下“荷蘭性”的思考。文化不是靜止的，文化是不斷發展變化的，這是我個(gè)人和(hé)辦公室最重要的設計問題之一。一個(gè)有(yǒu)意思的思考是，作(zuò)為(wèi)外國建築師我們能為(wèi)中國文化的發展帶來(lái)什麽？我們每天都在實踐和(hé)設計當中找答(dá)案。

 We also think and I also think that design is not limited to culture and this is where it becomes interesting. I think regarding your question as about China, this is also the reason why I've been living and working in China for over sixteen years now, because I think that being a Dutch person in a Chinese context, in Chinese culture enriches my thinking, my design ability with also my design philosophy and questioning being Dutch and questioning Dutchness in a Chinese context. The belief behind it is that culture is not something static, culture is something that is always evolving and changing and developing. And this is one of the most important design questions for me as a person, but also for us as an office.And the question of course is what we can bring as foreign architects to this evolving of Chinese culture. That is a very intriguing question where every day we have worked on in our practice and we design with.

另一個(gè)在中國常見的設計問題應該是時(shí)間(jiān)問題。我們都知道(dào)在設計領域幾乎沒有(yǒu)時(shí)間(jiān)來(lái)推敲改進設計，但(dàn)我認為(wèi)推敲設計是非常必要的環節。有(yǒu)時(shí)我覺得(de)城市和(hé)建築就是産生(shēng)GDP的機器(qì)，對時(shí)間(jiān)的限制(zhì)也限制(zhì)了我們完成一個(gè)可(kě)能在5年，10年，15年，20年後仍然優質、有(yǒu)趣、漂亮，對環境有(yǒu)益的建築。所以我認為(wèi)這是在中國背景下第二個(gè)重要的設計問題，我們作(zuò)為(wèi)建築師或設計師如何設計出在更長時(shí)間(jiān)不會(huì)褪色的作(zuò)品，我們應如何為(wèi)更長遠的未來(lái)設計。 

And if I would add another common design question for China, I think it's the issue of time. Because, like we all know,in the design field there is almost no time always in designing and developing your project. But I think the design is a very important aspect in design. And sometimes I feel that cities and buildings are too much like machines to generate GDP. And thinking, thislimit of time, restricts us also to design buildings that maybe in five, ten, fifteen, twenty years are stillgood buildings, interesting buildings, nice buildings, buildings that contribute to the environment. So I would also pose that as a second important design questionwithin the Chinese context.How can we as architects or designers to design longer periods without losing the important things that are here today. But how can we design for a longer future ahead.

主編：田甯

采訪人：Alex，der媒體(tǐ)部

統籌：田甯，Alex

拍攝：der媒體(tǐ)部

視頻：田甯

實錄校(xiào)對：Kelly，Alex

時(shí)機時(shí)機APP   @designeraer欄目組