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Markus Appenzeller

自職業生(shēng)涯開(kāi)始以來(lái)，馬故思一直負責國際大(dà)型建築和(hé)城市規劃項目。10多(duō)年來(lái)馬故思的設計專長範圍在小尺度的單體(tǐ)建築設計到大(dà)規模的城市規劃均有(yǒu)積累，并且在總體(tǐ)戰略規劃框架的執行(xíng)及如何将其發展成高(gāo)質量公共空(kōng)間(jiān)的領域也累積了深厚的專業知識。

I'm Markus Appenzeller. I'm one of the three founders of company MLA+. In China, we called 畝加.  And we started almost ten years ago as a company which was based in Rotterdam, but we had initially and from the beginning, had the ambition to work not just in the Netherlands, because it's a very small country. And actually our fascination also lights in kind of seeing how the world works and what we can bring into the world. And that's why very early on, we also put one of our focus point on China, and five years now we open up an office in Shenzhen.

我們深耕于許多(duō)領域——其中一個(gè)是戰略規劃。如何制(zhì)定發展框架，在框架內(nèi)進行(xíng)更多(duō)的詳細規劃，最終在規劃的引導下嵌入适合的建築設計。我們也在工作(zuò)中發展了特别的設計技能，我稱之為(wèi)“特殊的住宅技術(shù)”。不是标準的住房(fáng)，而是不同的住房(fáng)，微型住房(fáng)，為(wèi)殘疾人或老年人設計的住房(fáng)等等。

We've developed specific expertise in a number of fields-- One is a strategic planning. So how to make development frameworks within which then more detail plans and ultimately buildings can emerge.  We developed special expertise, I call them kind of special housing technologies. So not the standard housing but housing which is somehow different. Micro living, living for people with a disability, or for aged people.

最後，我們一直在鑽研并實踐的另一個(gè)方向，我們稱之為(wèi)彈性公共景觀，簡單來(lái)說是城市綠地，但(dàn)實際上(shàng)不止如此，因為(wèi)它不僅僅是綠色空(kōng)間(jiān)，還(hái)給城市增加了特色的開(kāi)敞空(kōng)間(jiān)，并且這些(xiē)外部空(kōng)間(jiān)也需要面對很(hěn)多(duō)其它事情，比如人類福祉、生(shēng)物多(duō)樣性和(hé)氣候變化。所以我認為(wèi)這三個(gè)領域是我們特别關注的，也是特别擅長的。

Lastly, we've been developing an expertise that we have been working a lot on, what we called resilience public landscapes which is actually simplified. You could say, urban green, but it's actually a lot more, because it's not just green space, it is actually the outer spaces that also characterized the cities and the outer spaces, which also need to deal with a whole bunch of other things, human well being biodiversity and climate change. So I think these three fields are what we are particularly focusing on, particular good at.

發展到現在，MLA+已經成為(wèi)一家(jiā)擁有(yǒu)大(dà)約160名員工的公司，在倫敦、深圳、柏林、莫斯科還(hái)有(yǒu)其他一些(xiē)城市都有(yǒu)開(kāi)設工作(zuò)室，我們是一家(jiā)非常國際化的公司。新冠疫情這樣的情況，讓很(hěn)多(duō)事情變得(de)非常不同的。但(dàn)如果你(nǐ)看到我自己的以及我的許多(duō)同事的工作(zuò)現狀，你(nǐ)會(huì)發現我們其實并沒有(yǒu)太大(dà)的變化，因為(wèi)我們一直在保持全球多(duō)個(gè)工作(zuò)室協同工作(zuò)，并使用大(dà)量的視頻會(huì)議和(hé)技術(shù)工具作(zuò)為(wèi)輔助。

Over the time, MLA+  developed into a company of roughly a hundred sixty people with offices  from London to Shenzhen, and many in between Berlin, Moscow and couple of other places. So we're working very much as an international company, and a situation like Covid, of course is very different and makes things very different. But if you look at my own work reality and the work reality of many of my colleagues is that actually not so much has changed, because we've always been working within offices, using a lot of video conferencing and technical tools to work. 

02

時(shí)機時(shí)機：MLA+的設計理(lǐ)念是什麽，可(kě)以具體(tǐ)介紹一下嗎？Design Philosophy of MLA+ 

Markus：總的來(lái)說，我們想讓人們的生(shēng)活更美好、更精彩。這就是驅使我們每天努力工作(zuò)的動力，也是讓我們努力尋找可(kě)以實現這一目标的合适的設計解決方案的動力。

In general minds it is that we want to make people's lives better and more amazing. And that's actually what  drives us to work hard every day and drives us to actually to find design solutions where we feel they help actually achieving that.

我們做(zuò)的所有(yǒu)設計，實際上(shàng)都與“場(chǎng)地”有(yǒu)關，我們每次開(kāi)發的解決方案都是特别針對于這一特定場(chǎng)地的設計的，這并不意味着我們沒有(yǒu)使用來(lái)自其他地方的知識。實際設計過程中我們會(huì)利用我們的國際知識和(hé)視野有(yǒu)針對性的提供一個(gè)設計解決方案，但(dàn)是我們并不想提供通(tōng)用的解決方案。

All the designs we do, are actually related to a place. So we want to develop solution every time that it can only happen in that place. That doesn't mean that we are not using the knowledge from elsewhere. We actually using our entire international knowledge to inform a design solution. But we are not offering sort of generic solutions for that could there  be anywhere.

我來(lái)拿(ná)一個(gè)建築項目來(lái)說一下我們是如何思考中國這個(gè)地域文脈的。我們在深圳建成了一個(gè)叫“熱帶大(dà)都市”的項目。這是一個(gè)微型公寓項目，但(dàn)是不是幾個(gè)公寓單元，而是4500個(gè)，這些(xiē)單元被組合在一個(gè)城市街(jiē)區(qū)。我認為(wèi)最棒且最有(yǒu)趣的是，這些(xiē)公寓實際上(shàng)是非常小的，大(dà)概隻有(yǒu)二十平方米。大(dà)家(jiā)可(kě)能會(huì)說，尤其是在歐洲人會(huì)說，它們也太小了吧(ba)，而且都是挨着重複着。

Speaking about the Chinese context, I think and using an architectural project, I think we've done a project which we call the tropical metropolis. It’s actually based in Shenzhen.  It's a project which has a micro apartments, but then not just a couple of them but four and a half thousand units, which were combined in one city block. And the nicest thing or the interesting thing about that is that actually they are very small, they're only like twenty square meters, so you could say, Oh, this is like, in Europe, people would say no is all too small and is all too close to full bake and the repetition. 

但(dàn)實際上(shàng)在中國大(dà)城市的背景下它完成了幾件事——一是它讓那(nà)些(xiē)住在城外的人可(kě)以負擔得(de)起市區(qū)住房(fáng)了，這個(gè)項目就在一個(gè)市中心地鐵(tiě)站(zhàn)旁邊。它還(hái)提供了共享的設施，要知道(dào)如果這個(gè)地方有(yǒu)4500個(gè)單元公寓，那(nà)麽你(nǐ)可(kě)能有(yǒu)超過6000人住在那(nà)裏。所以肯定就會(huì)有(yǒu)公用設施，超市、餐廳、健身房(fáng)、文化中心等等。這是一種與歐洲城市生(shēng)活模式不同的另一種模式。在歐洲，這種規模的項目是永遠無法獲得(de)批準實施的，因為(wèi)人們會(huì)反對說這種極端的複制(zhì)需要完全忽視這樣一個(gè)大(dà)型集體(tǐ)生(shēng)活在一起所帶來(lái)的社會(huì)層面的後果。這是其中一個(gè)例子。

But actually in the context of Chinese mega-cities, it delivers a couple of things -- one is actually it makes housing affordable for people which otherwise would have to live really outside the city. And this project is really next to a metro station in a fairly central location. It also allows for sharing. So, if you have four and a half thousand units then you have probably over six thousand people living there. So it's out of the question that you have shared facilities, supermarkets, restaurants, sports clubs, cultural centers, etc. And that's just kind of, it’s a different living model than with people are used to in, for example, European cities. So in the European City we would never be able to get any approval for this kind of project at that scale, because people would just sort of objects in a way that the radical repetition that making this liable actually requires completely overlooking the social dimension that such a big collective living together actually can also deliver in terms of quality. So that's one example.

▲ tropical metropolis深圳20平米住宅區(qū) © MLA+

在城市規劃方面，我們所做(zuò)的項目類型很(hěn)大(dà)程度上(shàng)也取決于當地人們所擁有(yǒu)的能力和(hé)技能。中國在制(zhì)定總體(tǐ)規劃方面有(yǒu)着相當先進的知識，因為(wèi)在過去的二三十年裏已經有(yǒu)很(hěn)多(duō)經驗了，人們因此熟能生(shēng)巧。但(dàn)是如果你(nǐ)把這個(gè)和(hé)我們在非洲加納做(zuò)的一個(gè)項目相比，那(nà)個(gè)項目也是一個(gè)城市擴展項目，和(hé)最近幾十年在中國出現的類似，我們仔細考慮過當地居民擁有(yǒu)怎樣的能力，然後得(de)到了當地技術(shù)知識水(shuǐ)平相對還(hái)是很(hěn)低(dī)的結論，所以我們調整了規劃。

On the urban planning scale, there is probably, the types of assignments and the types of plans we are making also largely depends on the local skills that people have. So, China has a pretty advanced knowledge on how to make master plans, because that there had been a lot in the last twenty thirty years. So people have become pretty  skilled in doing that. But if you compare this to, for example, a project which we did in Ghana Africa, we also did a plan on city extension, pretty much like what you saw in other recent decades in China as well where we really carefully thought about,  what is the local skill set that people have and have to conclude that  the level of technical knowledge is much smaller. Then we adjust the plan. 

在中國，我們制(zhì)定的規劃非常複雜。但(dàn)在加納，我們決定做(zuò)一些(xiē)非常基礎的東西。我們從一個(gè)網格開(kāi)始，這是用來(lái)劃分土地和(hé)劃分基礎設施的最簡單的方法，然後再進一步發展它。為(wèi)了确保所以我們經常詢問當地人他們的技術(shù)能力以及他們可(kě)以實現到什麽程度，因為(wèi)去指定一個(gè)複雜但(dàn)是完全不能落地的規劃方案是完全沒有(yǒu)意義的，而且後果也會(huì)很(hěn)糟糕。所以這就是為(wèi)什麽我們不斷地問自己，在這樣的背景下，什麽是真正可(kě)行(xíng)的。

So whereas in China, we make very complex plans. There we decided to make something very basic. So we started with a grid but that was the most simple device you can use to the divide land and to divide infrastructure, and from there we then, kind of developed it further. Just to make sure and always ask what is the skill set local people have and what can they actually manage because there's no point of making a complex plan for people which don't have to skill actually to implement it. It will lead to disaster. So that's why we are constantly asking ourselves,  what it actually realistically possible in such context. 

▲ Africa City planning © MLA+

03

時(shí)機時(shí)機：結合自身經驗，您對城市規劃和(hé)建築設計的跨界思考有(yǒu)什麽？Cross disciplinary thinking of urban planning and architectural design.

Markus：我們還(hái)把設計思維融入到規劃層面中，通(tōng)常是更大(dà)的尺度的項目，同時(shí)也将規劃思維納入設計實踐。因為(wèi)我認為(wèi)它們在某種程度上(shàng)是相互關聯的，很(hěn)多(duō)常見的問題也是因為(wèi)規劃者不是設計師，設計師也不是規劃者。

We also introduce design thinking on the planning level, which is typically the larger scale, and we include the planning thinking into the design scale. Because I think they're all somehow interconnected and you can, and often that is exactly the problem that planners are not designers and designers are not planners.

這也是為(wèi)什麽我們公司一直在跨越這些(xiē)邊界，用規劃、城市設計、建築設計以及其他不同尺度的設計方法和(hé)思維來(lái)實踐。

That's also why we as a company and work across these borders and use means and thinking of in a way all the three a scale, planning, urban design and architectural design in the different in the other scales as well.

這些(xiē)專業其實都是相對互通(tōng)的，但(dàn)當然，與設計城市空(kōng)間(jiān)相比，設計一座建築還(hái)是需要不同的思維方式和(hé)技能。

The boundaries between scales and in a way all the professions are quite fluid. But of course designing a building requires a different mindset and also a different skill set than in designing an urban space.

城市規劃考慮的是外部環境，比如公共空(kōng)間(jiān)是什麽樣的？它們是如何組織的？其中的基礎設施是如何運作(zuò)的？建築物外立面是什麽樣子的？但(dàn)它并沒有(yǒu)真正深入研究建築的內(nèi)部的運作(zuò)。而建築設計則是在關注建築外觀的同時(shí)，更加思考建築的內(nèi)部運作(zuò)方式，更關注物理(lǐ)空(kōng)間(jiān)，關注材料，當然這是一個(gè)更小的空(kōng)間(jiān)範圍。我們如何體(tǐ)驗空(kōng)間(jiān)也是我認為(wèi)城市尺度和(hé)建築尺度上(shàng)處理(lǐ)方式不同的一點。在城市的尺度項目中，我們在環境上(shàng)做(zuò)了大(dà)量的工作(zuò)，我們也在開(kāi)放空(kōng)間(jiān)、綠色植物和(hé)城市中的自然元素上(shàng)做(zuò)了大(dà)量的工作(zuò)來(lái)規劃設計。而在建築中，真正重要的是空(kōng)間(jiān)的純粹性，關于構建的思考，我如何使用牆壁，天花(huā)闆，地闆，開(kāi)口來(lái)創造一個(gè)有(yǒu)趣的空(kōng)間(jiān)。

City planning is talking about the exterior. So how do public spaces? How are they organized? How does the infrastructure within that work? How do buildings look like from the outside? But it's not really going too much into inner workings of the building. Whereas architectural really is about also about how it looks like on the outside, but also how inner working of the building actually is. It's a lot more physical. It's about materials. It's about a smaller scale range of space. It's about, in the end, how do our experience the space, and that's also how I think the difference in approach to the urban scale and to the architecture scale. On the urban scale, we work a lot with atmospheres, we work a lot with also open space and greenery and the natural elements in the city  to structure them. Whereas in architecture is really about the purity of space. The kind of tectonic operations, how can I use walls, ceilings, floors, openings in such a way that they create an interesting space.

當然，亞洲和(hé)歐洲的城市背景也有(yǒu)差異。如果討(tǎo)論的是一個(gè)歐洲城市的六層或八層的建築，那(nà)麽關于"是否在高(gāo)層上(shàng)設計更多(duō)的公共空(kōng)間(jiān)? "這樣的問題就不會(huì)出現。但(dàn)在亞洲城市，這實際上(shàng)是我們正在深入研究的內(nèi)容。我們應如何真正打造出一個(gè)更三維的建築，包括更高(gāo)樓層的公共空(kōng)間(jiān)設計和(hé)公共性的植入，以及把那(nà)種街(jiē)道(dào)中的生(shēng)活場(chǎng)景帶入到建築其他不同的樓層中。

There is also a difference between the Asian and the European context of cities. So if you talk about the building with like six stories or eight stories in a European city, then the question does not arise ‘do you actually also need public space on the on higher levels?’  But in Asian cities, that is actually something which more and more we are kind of investigating, how we can really make a much more three dimensional architecture, sort of including public space and publicness on higher levels and in a way pulling,also the the kind of street life in the street level life up into the building on different different floors.

尤其是亞洲城市的建築，體(tǐ)量是非常大(dà)的，如果我們不設法在這些(xiē)大(dà)型建築中加入公共元素，那(nà)麽它們就會(huì)變成一個(gè)單純的巨物，且變得(de)非常內(nèi)向自治，進而上(shàng)失去了它們對城市生(shēng)活的積極貢獻。這就是為(wèi)什麽我認為(wèi)在任何可(kě)能的情況下，公共性都是很(hěn)重要的，植入某種形式的公共空(kōng)間(jiān)，不一定非得(de)是純粹的公共空(kōng)間(jiān)，像進入建築物的公共通(tōng)道(dào)也是可(kě)以的。

Buildings especially in Asian cities, have become so big that if we don't manage to include in a public elements of publicness in these large buildings, then they become enormous, they become very sort of autonomous and actually lose their function as a positive contribution to city life. And that's why I think it's important to wherever possible, in a way, it public, some form of publicness, doesn't always have to be completely public space, but something of like public access into buildings.

04

時(shí)機時(shí)機：您對于當下的城市公共空(kōng)間(jiān)現狀有(yǒu)什麽樣的思考？Thinking on current public spaces

Markus：公共空(kōng)間(jiān)最原始最基礎的定義是一個(gè)你(nǐ)可(kě)以沒有(yǒu)任何目的，沒有(yǒu)任何限制(zhì)而停留的空(kōng)間(jiān)。一般來(lái)說，街(jiē)道(dào)就是典型的公共空(kōng)間(jiān)，但(dàn)近年來(lái)，公共和(hé)私人的定義也出現了程度上(shàng)的分級，購物中心、商業空(kōng)間(jiān)，無論是室內(nèi)還(hái)是室外都是很(hěn)好的例子。從法律意義上(shàng)講，它們實際上(shàng)不是公共的，它們是私有(yǒu)的，隻是可(kě)以被具有(yǒu)公共到達性。

Originally and basically public spaces in space where you can be without any purpose and without any limitation. So typically a street is a public space,  but in recent years and there's also gradations between public and private, and I think shopping malls are a typical, any of these shopping environments whether indoors or outdoors are good examples. They actually not public in a legal sense. They are private, but they are publicly accessible.

我們需要找到并保持正确的平衡。我認為(wèi)把公共空(kōng)間(jiān)的商業化程度去界定清楚是很(hěn)重要的，很(hěn)多(duō)時(shí)候這還(hái)是有(yǒu)點模糊的，什麽是公共空(kōng)間(jiān)，什麽這種商業空(kōng)間(jiān)。我認為(wèi)一般來(lái)說，尤其是涉及到自然，我們應該确保自然空(kōng)間(jiān)一定是公共的，而不能以任何形式被商業化。但(dàn)在公園的邊緣空(kōng)間(jiān)，有(yǒu)一些(xiē)咖啡館和(hé)一些(xiē)售貨亭是沒有(yǒu)什麽錯的，但(dàn)要保證它們可(kě)以很(hěn)容易的被找到。

It's really finding and keeping the right balance. I'm all for being clear about that. So sometimes it's a bit blurry, what is public and what this kind of commercialized and I think in general I think we should, especially when it comes to nature, we should make sure that nature actually is public and nature is not commercialized in any form or shape. And on the other hand, at the edge of a park, it's nothing wrong of having a couple of cafes and some kiosk somewhere in between, but then it's kind of clearly legible. 

▲ 成都天府 ©MLA+

還(hái)有(yǒu)一個(gè)是我們目前設計公園時(shí)經常用到的理(lǐ)念。我們也強烈主張，當你(nǐ)建造公園的時(shí)候，有(yǒu)些(xiē)甚至可(kě)以不是公共的，那(nà)些(xiē)區(qū)域隻是為(wèi)了保護原生(shēng)态，所以它甚至不是人們可(kě)以進入的，因為(wèi)目的是保護生(shēng)态系統，并确保自然可(kě)以被留在城市裏。所以我們在開(kāi)發一種系統，如何讓人們不進入的情況下還(hái)能一定程度上(shàng)感知它，基本上(shàng)穿過景觀便可(kě)以充分享受它，因為(wèi)人們一旦踏入便會(huì)破壞這部分自然體(tǐ)驗。我認為(wèi)我們需要越來(lái)越多(duō)往這個(gè)方向實踐，這樣我們才能應對生(shēng)物多(duō)樣性缺失，并在城市環境中重建生(shēng)态系統。

There is also and that's what part of the philosophy which we use a lot when we now design parks. We also strongly advocate that when you do parks, there are some are not even public, so they are just, they just protected wilderness, so it's not even for human access because aim to protect ecosystems and be also to make sure that the nature remains within the city. So we are kind of developed systems, how we can actually, in a way, make it perceivable for human beings, so you can basically walks through the landscape and you can enjoy the landscape. But you can actually not access that part of the landscape, because human access would actually destroy the very a scenery of the very experience. and I think that we have to do this more and more so that we can deal with the loss of biodiversity and kind of reinstall ecosystems also in the urban context. 

05

時(shí)機時(shí)機：根據MLA+倫敦奧運會(huì)公園更新的經曆，不同屆奧運會(huì)（比如北京奧運會(huì)）對城市影(yǐng)響您的思考是怎樣的？According to the experience of London Olympic park,  do you have any thoughts on Olympics’  impact on various cities

Markus：我認為(wèi)這兩屆奧運會(huì)的目的和(hé)宣傳是完全不同的。在倫敦，他們認為(wèi)需要重建那(nà)片後來(lái)成為(wèi)了奧林匹克公園的區(qū)域，因為(wèi)那(nà)是一個(gè)衰敗的工業片區(qū)，有(yǒu)空(kōng)氣污染等等的問題。他們認為(wèi)奧運會(huì)将是一個(gè)很(hěn)好的投資方式，也是一個(gè)很(hěn)好的方式來(lái)推進這部分城市更新，因為(wèi)城市更新早晚都會(huì)發生(shēng)的。因此，重建的想法已經是倫敦向奧林匹克委員會(huì)提出方案中的一部分了，隻是現在他們正在實現它。而我認為(wèi)在北京的背景下，有(yǒu)的是一個(gè)完全不同的動機。

和(hé)許多(duō)其他奧運會(huì)上(shàng)看到的情況相似，奧運會(huì)賽事什麽的一切結束後，才提出關于“我們要用這些(xiē)基礎設施做(zuò)什麽?”的問題。

That's more a similar thing we saw in many Olympic Games that they were over then question arises. What do we do with all these infrastructure?

當我們在參與倫敦這個(gè)項目時(shí)，我們就能清楚的看到人們從一開(kāi)始就認為(wèi)城市更新是我們最終努力的方向，而奧運會(huì)隻是一個(gè)中間(jiān)階段。但(dàn)是奧林匹克公園和(hé)奧林匹克設施有(yǒu)很(hěn)多(duō)基礎設施的要求和(hé)限制(zhì)，但(dàn)實際上(shàng)不僅僅是這樣，它更是一個(gè)需要考慮人群的奧林匹克公園，是關于流動的，是關于設施管理(lǐ)的，關于如何吸引人們來(lái)到奧林匹克公園的，還(hái)有(yǒu)關于安全，所有(yǒu)這些(xiē)都在很(hěn)大(dà)程度上(shàng)決定了到底什麽是可(kě)能的。所以在倫敦的背景下，他們建造了一個(gè)奧林匹克公園，但(dàn)實際他們已經計劃好之後要做(zuò)什麽了，并在使用它的方式上(shàng)做(zuò)了一些(xiē)調整。

When people and that's what we were involved in London, we saw this clearly that people initially thought that the regeneration is basically what you're working towards and the Olympics are  kind of intermediate stage. But an Olympic Park and Olympic facilities come with so many infrastructural requirements and constraints, that it's actually not really like that. It's more like there is an Olympic Park which has it's about crowd flow. It's about flows. It's about the management of the facilities. It's about getting people around the Park Olympic Park. It's about security. All these things in a way dictates to a large extent what is possible. So in the London context, they did an Olympic Park, but they already plan for what to do after and there was some tweaking and some adjustment in such a way you can expect to use it.

北京在任何方面都比倫敦更像紀念性城市。

Beijing in all terms is a much more monumental city than the London is.

我認為(wèi)這是一個(gè)有(yǒu)趣的概念，其實我們在設計開(kāi)發的時(shí)候也會(huì)有(yǒu)類似的想法。在北京可(kě)以看到一個(gè)清晰可(kě)見宏觀的城市規劃，兩個(gè)軸線、環路以及中間(jiān)分布的棋盤式的網格。你(nǐ)但(dàn)在這些(xiē)網格中間(jiān)又有(yǒu)無數(shù)個(gè)微型城市，兩類“城市”的思考是完全不同的，後者是可(kě)步行(xíng)的、人類友(yǒu)好尺度的，也是關于社區(qū)、關于街(jiē)道(dào)上(shàng)生(shēng)活服務的。

And I think it's an interesting concept, because at some point we developed also that idea of like, there is a macro city which in Beijing is very clearly visible with the big, the two axes and the rings and the grid in between and then you have these micro cities, which are actually entire districts within this within the grid, which can actually have a completely different logic which are walkable, which are small scale, which is about community, which is about all sorts of services on the street.

我幾乎在任何地方都能找到有(yǒu)趣的東西，這也會(huì)讓你(nǐ)重新思考你(nǐ)對很(hěn)多(duō)事情的先入之見到底是否都是好的，是否都是真的。

I'd almost in any place you find something which you find sort of interesting and actually which makes you also rethink whether all your preconceptions about what is good is actually are all true or not.

06

時(shí)機時(shí)機：您認為(wèi)複雜項目中多(duō)方的參與的方式和(hé)以前有(yǒu)變化麽？Do you think bottom up methods become more popular in planning process?

Markus：人在項目中的作(zuò)用比過去發揮着更大(dà)的作(zuò)用，因為(wèi)我們也發現某些(xiē)想法隻有(yǒu)在充分理(lǐ)解人之後才能成功達成。所以在我們實踐的所有(yǒu)項目中，都有(yǒu)一個(gè)非常重要的要素，可(kě)以說是自下而上(shàng)，但(dàn)我們認為(wèi)更好的說法是，這是一個(gè)包容性的過程，這是我們的目标，我們讓每個(gè)人都可(kě)以參與到項目裏來(lái)：政府的相關領導，最終使用的用戶、住戶或者顧客，業主等等，我們在一個(gè)項目中盡量把他們聚集在一起，這就是我們的目标。當然有(yǒu)時(shí)為(wèi)達到這個(gè)目标我們需要更多(duō)的支持，在一般情況下，它或多(duō)或少(shǎo)都可(kě)以自動發生(shēng)。

People play a bigger role than they did in the past everywhere, because we've also seen that certain things can only be delivered with people. So in all places we’re working in and there is a bigger component of, you could say, bottom up, but I think for us that it's not so much the point. I think for us, it's much more, I was more call it an inclusive process which we're aiming for, which actually includes  everybody into this. So people from a sort of administrative governing layer and people, which are ultimately, either the users or the residents or the the guest or whatever, and actually bringing them together in a product. That's what our aim is. And sometimes that needs a bit more more support to get this, and in other conditions, it it happens more or less automatically.

如果你(nǐ)在早期就讓更多(duō)相關人員參與，可(kě)能設計的過程會(huì)稍微長一點，但(dàn)整個(gè)審批過程會(huì)快得(de)多(duō)，因為(wèi)你(nǐ)已經獲得(de)了一些(xiē)認同和(hé)支持。然而，如果你(nǐ)采用傳統的流程方法，那(nà)麽你(nǐ)可(kě)能會(huì)在設計階段比較快，但(dàn)随後批準需要很(hěn)長的時(shí)間(jiān)，因為(wèi)一定會(huì)有(yǒu)人反對它，有(yǒu)人不同意它。然後你(nǐ)必須一遍又一遍的調整。城市發展總是會(huì)有(yǒu)一定程度的沖突，這是很(hěn)正常的，但(dàn)是你(nǐ)可(kě)以通(tōng)過盡早讓人們參與進來(lái)，在沖突成為(wèi)問題之前盡量幫助解決它。

If you include people early on, then that process of like getting to a design that might take slightly longer, but the whole approval process is much quicker because you already have support for something. Whereas if you go down the traditional route then it's often that's you might be quickened during a plan, but then the approval takes longer because there is people who object to it, there is people who don't agree with it. And then you are again, you kind of getting into runs off adjustments, and there's also, of course, city development is always a degree of conflict. That's natural. But you can, by involving people early on, you can in a way help solving this conflicts before they become a problem.

07

時(shí)機時(shí)機：作(zuò)為(wèi)MLA+的創始人，您對公司內(nèi)的年輕設計師有(yǒu)什麽期望？About the young

Markus：他們更容易在一個(gè)快速變化的世界中接受複雜性，因為(wèi)這就是我們的世界正在以前所未有(yǒu)的速度在變化，現在的年輕人需要面對現狀并在其中生(shēng)存。我想有(yǒu)兩種正常的反應：一個(gè)是恐懼，在某種程度上(shàng)試圖阻止這一切，雖然我認為(wèi)這幾乎是不可(kě)能做(zuò)到的；另一種就是擁抱它，并把它作(zuò)為(wèi)你(nǐ)人生(shēng)和(hé)你(nǐ)設計思考的真正驅動力。我想這是我所接觸到的許多(duō)學生(shēng)以及我們許多(duō)年輕的同事們真正令人敬佩的地方，比老一輩的人，他們在處理(lǐ)很(hěn)多(duō)事情時(shí)都有(yǒu)毫無保留的沖勁。我真的很(hěn)喜歡。

They embrace complexity in a rapidly changing world much more easily, because that's what our world is changing faster than ever. And now there is a younger generation which actually needs to operate in it. And I think there's two reactions you can have. One is fear and in a way trying to to kind of stop this, which I think is almost impossible to do. The other is actually sort of embracing it and using it as a driving force for your own life for your own thinking around design. And I think that's what I really admire about many of the students I am dealing with and also many of our young colleagues that they are sort of approaching a lot of things with a lot less reservation than the older generation would do. I really like that.

世界變化得(de)越快，你(nǐ)就必須更加堅定自己的價值體(tǐ)系，我認為(wèi)現在年輕人在很(hěn)多(duō)方面都比我們這一代人更加堅定。他們有(yǒu)自己的信仰和(hé)見解，他們比起我們也更有(yǒu)意識地捍衛自己的信仰和(hé)見解，他們隻是同時(shí)也接受了更多(duō)正在發生(shēng)的改變，我認為(wèi)他們很(hěn)像海裏的岩石，不可(kě)動搖。

The quicker the world changes, the more firm you have to be in terms of your own system of values, and I think there are a lot firm in many ways than my generation is. So they have their beliefs and they have their insights, I think they are defending them much more consciously than my generation did. And at the same time they just accept a lot more that changing something which happens, and it's I think there are more the rocks in the sea than we.

在我看來(lái)，尤其是我的學生(shēng)，他們的信念更堅定了，我認為(wèi)這很(hěn)好。

Now as I see, especially my students, they are a lot more, the conviction is much higher, and I think that's nice.

08

時(shí)機時(shí)機：最後給年輕設計師們一些(xiē)鼓勵吧(ba)。To the young

Markus：保持好奇心，保持開(kāi)放，永遠不要落入窠臼，不要認為(wèi)你(nǐ)的先入之見一定就是現實的真相。

Stay curious, stay open, and never fall into the trap of assuming that your preconceptions are what reality really is about.

拍攝：der媒體(tǐ)部
視頻：田甯
實錄校(xiào)對：Kelly，Alex

宣傳：der媒體(tǐ)部

時(shí)機時(shí)機APP   @designeraer欄目組